Confronting and Confounding Rick Ross, a National and International Expert Witness on cults.


Below is from Christopher’s Daily Journal today.

The defamation case is turning into something good for the Marvelous Work and a Wonder® and the Humanity Party®.  Christopher will be able to cross-examine and depose Mr. Rick Ross, who touts that he is one of the world’s foremost experts on cults.

Mr. Ross might have done a lot of research on cults, cult leaders, and cult behavior, but he has never interviewed, nor confronted, nor been confounded by a True Messenger.

He will now.

Christopher’s Daily Journal, October 17, 2018:

Echthros’ witnesses have been revealed. Challenging Rick Ross, a so-called Cult Expert.

Pursuant to the Court’s Order setting deadlines for discovery for the upcoming trial, through his attorney, Echthros submitted his witness list.

Yeah, it’s cool who’s coming to the trial … NOT!

Guess who the witnesses for Echthros are going to be?

Well, I’ll just let you see for yourself what Echthros filed with the Court:


  1. Capt. David Bishop, 2028 East Ben White Blvd. No. 240-4668 Austin, TX 78741
  2. Bryce Blakenagel, 6246 NE Radford Drive Apt. 2321, Seattle, WA 98115, (801) 558-1972
  3. Lola Blanc (Look her up.  She’s a celebrity … Yeah, Really!)
  4. Keldon Brown, Orem Police Dept. 95 Center St.,Orem, UT 84057, (80 l) 229-7070
  5. Stephen Dark, The City Weekly, Salt Lake City, UT (801) 414-5433
  6. Curt Ence
  7. Duane Erickson
  8. Kimberlee Galaxxy, f/k/a Kimberlee Briggs, 1125 South Slate Canyon Drive, Provo, UT 84606
  9. Linda Hatzenbuehler, Ph.D. 231 North 6th Ave., Pocatello, ID 83201, Dr. Hatzenbuehler received her B.A.(1969) in psychology from John Carroll University, her M.S. (1971) from Kent State University, and her Ph.D (1977) in clinical psychology from Kent State University. Dr. Hatzenbuehler is a board certified forensic psychologist. Dr. Hatzenbuehler has been retained to conduct an independent mental examination on the Plaintiff. Her anticipated testimony will concern the results of the examination, and an assessment of Plaintiffs outrageous, malicious, and/or oppressive actions towards [Echthros]. This disclosure will be supplemented upon completion of the independent mental examination. (Yeah, Really!)
  10. Nick ltsopoulos, Trident Group, Virginia Beach, VA 23464 (321) 403-4962
  11. Glenn Iverson
  12. Jon and Sue Kammerman
  13. Christine Marie Katas, 4952 South Rainbow Blvd. No. 195 Las Vegas, NV 89118, (818) 319-0391
  14. Barry Knudsen, c/o Alpha House, 2300 East Division Street Springfield, MO 65803, (413) 243-0663.
  15. Hon. Denise P. Lindberg, c/o Third District Court 450 So. State St.,Salt Lake City, UT 84111, (801) 578-3806 (Yeah, Really!)
  16. Det. John R. Llewellyn, Bluffdale, UT 84065, (801) 254-4033
  17. Shawn McCraney, Heart of the Matter, 137 West 4640 South Salt Lake City, UT 84107, (801) 590-8413
  18. Det. Daniel W. McKown, Orem Police Dept. 95 Center St., Orem, UT 84057, (801) 229-7070
  19. Cory and Linda Nemelka
  20. Jackie and Sariah Nemelka
  21. Joel Nemelka
  22. Joseph Lee Nemelka, 6806 South 1300 East Salt Lake City, UT 84121, (801) 568-9191
  23. Sheryl A. Nemelka, 2609 West Lingard Street Lancaster, CA 93536-6415, (801) 755-5797
  24. Lt. Kevin Ostler, Power County Sheriff’s Office 550 Gifford Street, American Falls, ID 83211 (208) 226-2311
  25. Robert G. Pace, 6693 Gina Road, Herriman, UT 84096, (80 l) 971-6402
  26. Craig W. Parrish, P.O. Box 4321 Pocatello, ID 83205 (208) 234-1234
  27. Vicky and Rachel Prunty, Sacramento, CA (916) 856-7807
  28. Alan and Marcee Quirk
  29. Diana Rhyne
  30. Rick Alan Ross, The Cult Education Institute 1977 North Olden Ave., Ext. 272, Trenton, NJ 08618,(609) 396-6684. Mr. Ross is a nationally recognized expert on cults. He has been retained by the Defendant as an expert witness in this case at the following rates: $75.00/hour for travel time, $150.00/hour for preparation and consultation time, $200.00/hour for deposition and court testimony time. A preliminary report as well as detailed information about Mr. Ross’ qualifications and experience are attached as Exhibit A to this disclosure.
  31. Laura Saiki, 234 Garden Park, Orem, UT 84057, (801) 870-1303
  32. Tony Saiki, 234 West Garden Park Orem, UT 84057, (775) 296-5551
  33. Joey Scoma, Mapleton, UT 84664, (760) 579-3619
  34. Andrew Sproge, Eagle Mountain, UT, (801) 318-8502
  35. Kurt and Monica Smith, 2587 Southside, Melba, ID 83641, (208) 941-1245
  36. Mark Sorenson, Orem Police Dept., 95 Center St., Orem, UT 84057, (801) 229-7070.
  37. Julie Taggert, 335 South 200 East, Salt Lake City, UT 84111, (801) 577-1928
  38. Denton and Sydney Thiede, 1687 Mills Lane, Heber City, UT 84032, (801) 243-0519
  39. Sgt. Nicholas G. Thomas, Orem Police Dept., 95 Center St., Orem, UT 84057, (801) 229-7070
  40. LeeAnn Turpin, LCPC Center Counseling, 265 East Chubbuck Road Chubbuck, ID 83202. LeeAnn Turpin is a licensed clinical professional counselor. She has a B.A. degree (elementary education and teaching) from Idaho State University, and a masters degree (mental health counseling/counselor) from Idaho State University. She wasa counselor and teacher with the Blackfoot Idaho School District from August 1994 to July 2005. She has been a mental health counselor at Center Counseling from December 1999 to present. LeeAnn Turpin has had several counseling sessions with [Echthros] in which [Echthros] has informed Ms. Turpin about the facts of this case, as set forth in Defendant/Counterclaiman’ts Verified Second Amended Answer and Counterclaim, filed August 6, 2018. Based upon those facts, and her observations of [Echthros] at the counseling sessions, Ms. Turpin will testify that [Echthros] suffers from PTSD due to the outrageous, malicious, and/or oppressive actions of the Plaintiff, and that Plaintiff’s actions have aggravated [Echthros’] OCD. Ms. Turpin will also testify about how many counseling sessions will be necessary with [Echthros] to treat the PTSD and OCD issues, and the expense involved. At this time, Ms. Turpin cannot offer an opinion on how many counseling sessions will be required, and [Echthros] reserves the right to supplement this disclosure upon determination of the same. Ms. Turpin’s hourly rate is $85.00. She has not testified in trial or in deposition the past four (4) years.  (Yeah, Really!)
  41. Kyle D. Williams
  42. Any witness disclosed by Plaintiff / Counterdefendant
  43. Any witness previously disclosed by Defendant / Counterclaimant

(End of Echthros’ Witness List.)

I added another who Echthros had listed in one of his first responses to Interrogatories was treating him for psychological damage: Shannon Brown, Clinical Social Worker specialist in Pocatello ID.  Shannon Brown is a Clinical Social Worker Specialist in Pocatello, Idaho. He graduated with honors in 2011. Having more than 7 years of diverse experiences, especially in CLINICAL SOCIAL WORK, Shannon Brown affiliates with no hospital and cooperates with other doctors and specialists without joining any medical groups. Call Shannon Brown on phone number (208) 232-6260 for more information and advice or to book an appointment.  [See Def Response First Set of Interrogatories … other number: (208) 226-2822.]

And for your reading pleasure, here is EXHIBIT A … Yeah, Really!:


Curriculum Vitae


Rick Ross is the founder and Executive Director of The Cult Education Institute (CEI), formerly known as the Ross Institute of New Jersey. CEI is a nonprofit corporation and tax-exempt educational institution devoted to the study of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements. Researchers and the media around the world have often cited the CEI Internet archive as a meaningful resource. CEI is a member of both the American and New Jersey Library Associations. Rick Ross is also an expert consultant, lecturer and intervention specialist regarding destructive cults, controversial groups and movements. He has worked with hundreds of families, mental health professionals, attorneys, clergy, law enforcement and each year responds to thousands of inquiries. Ross has been qualified and accepted as an expert witness across the United States in numerous court cases. His testimony has typically focused upon the behavior of destructive groups, their persuasion techniques and undue influence.


2003-Present Executive Director, The Cult Education Institute, formerly known as the Ross Institute of New Jersey

1986-Present Private Consultant, Lecturer and Intervention Specialist

1984-1986 Instructor for the Bureau of Jewish Education, Phoenix, Arizona regarding destructive cults, radical, controversial and potentially unsafe groups for high school and adult education.

1983-1986 Jewish Family & Children’s Service Phoenix, Arizona as Coordinator for the Jewish Prisoner Program and agency resource person regarding destructive cults, potentially unsafe and controversial groups.


1970 Graduated from Phoenix Union High School, Phoenix Arizona

1969 Attended Camden Military Academy, Camden, South Carolina


2011 Certificate of recognition from U.S. Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller, III, Director Community Service Citation from B’NAI B’RITH International, Washington D.C.


1983-86 Instructor for the Bureau of Jewish Education

Adult and Hebrew High classes course titled “Cults and Crusades–Conversion through Coercion”


2010 Advised the State of Israel, Ministry of Welfare and Social Services concerning “An Examination of the Phenomenon of Cults in Israel”, published 2011

1993 Advised both Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) regarding the Waco-Davidians

1986 Chairman, Religious Advisory Committee for the Arizona Department of Corrections

1986 Chairman, International Commission for Jewish Prisoner Programs

1984 National Committee on lnterreligious Affairs for the Union of American Hebrew Congregations

1983 Religious Advisory Committee for the Arizona Department of Corrections

1983 National Committee on Cults and Missionaries for the Union of American Hebrew Congregations

1982 The Community Relations sub-Committee on Cults and Missionaries


“Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out,” “(CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform October 16, 2014). Peace Books, Hong Kong (Chinese translation 2015), Antao Edizionl, Rome (Italian translation 2015)

“Ex-Cult Members Can Be Derpogrammed”, Chapter 4 Part 1 “Cults: Opposing Viewpoints”, Greenhaven Press, Gale/Cengage Learning 2012

“Cults: Assessment”, Presented at the International Symposium on Cultic Studies held at Assumption University, Thailand. Published by the Institute of Religious Studies Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, China 2011

“Cult Deprogramming: An Examination of the Intervention Process”, Published by the Shenzhen International Symposium on Cultic Studies sponsored by the Institute of Religious Studies, Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, China December 2010

“Is Falun Gong a Cult?” Published by the Centre for the Study of Destructive Cults Beijing Academy of Social Sciences, China December 2009

“In the Name of Love: Abusive Controlling Relationships,” 2004

“Cults: An Educational Volume,” 2001


The Missionary Threat, published by the Institute for First Amendment Studies 1995

Guidelines for a Community and Congregational Response, Cults and Missionaries, published by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations 1984

What in God’s Name is going on in Arizona? published by the Jewish Federation of Phoenix 1982


An analysis of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda 2001

The Emergence of New Hybrid/Composite Groups and Counseling Approaches: A Study of Friends Landing 1999

Has Madonna Joined a Cult? 1997

Bigotry Lurks in born-again Christian Doctrine, published by The Arizona Republic Newspaper 1982


Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out by Rick Alan Ross, CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform 2014

Cults: Opposing Viewpoints Chapter 4: “How Can Cult Members Be Helped,” by Rick Alan Ross, Greenhaven Press 2012

Prominently quoted within Hollywood lnterrupted by Andrew Breitbart and Mark Ebner, John Wiley & Sons 2004

Interview within The Power of Cult Branding, by Matthew Ragas and Bolivar Bueno, Prima Publishing 2002

Cited case intervention work within The Walking Wounded: A Look at Faith Theology, by Jeremy Reynalds, Huntington House Publishers 1996

Cited within Snapping: America’s Sudden Personality Change, by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman, Second Edition by Stillpoint Press 1995

Forward to See No Evil: Blind Devotion and Bloodshed in David Koresh’s Holy War, by Tim Madigan, published by Summit Group 1993

See No Evil, Chapter Rick Ross Takes One Back, by Tim Madigan 1993

Cited within Cults and Consequences: The Definitive Handbook, published by the Community Relations Committee: Jewish Federation of Greater Los Angeles 1988

Letters to Editor

What Happened at Waco, published by The Washington Post 1995

Waco: A Response to an Article by Dean Kelley, published by First Things Magazine

Numerous letters published regarding destructive cults, controversial groups and movements in publications such as the following:

The Nation, The Humanist Magazine, Penthouse Magazine, The Arizona Republic Newspaper, The Phoenix New Times, The Phoenix Gazette, The Scottsdale Progress and The Boston Phoenix


“Cults: Assessment”, Presented at the International Symposium on Cultic Studies held at Assumption University, Thailand. Published by the Institute of Religious Studies Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, China 2011

Is Falun Gong a Cult? International Forum on Cultic Studies sponsored by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Shenzhen, China 2009

Survivors of Harmful Treatment Programs 2003 Conference

Criminal Cults and their Violent Acts at the 38th Annual Dickinson College Public Affairs Symposium Crimes and Punishment, Dickinson College, PA, February 18-21, 2001

Cults: Conversion through Coercion, Maricopa County Medical Center, Phoenix 1994

Cults and Missionaries, the Biennial Conference of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations 1985

Conversion through Coercion, panel presentation sponsored by the Department of Communication at Arizona State University, 1984

Mind Control: The Fundamentalist Syndrome, An Ecumenical and Professional Community Conference sponsored by the Phoenix Jewish Federation and Jewish Family and Children’s Service 1983


Rick Ross has been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in United States Federal Court and also within the courts of —

  • Alabama
  • Arizona
  • California
  • Georgia
  • Kansas
  • Kentucky
  • North Dakota
  • Ohio
  • Pennsylvania
  • Wisconsin
  • Washington C.

Rick Ross has been deposed, testified and/or submitted testimony by affidavit as an expert within —

  • Arkansas
  • Connecticut
  • South Carolina
  • Texas


Arizona State University Auburn University Baylor University

Carnegie Mellon University

Catawba Valley Executives Club, Hickory, NC

Central Oregon Community College/Cascadia College, Oregon State University

Clark University, Worcester, MA

Concord College

Dickenson College

Duquesne University

Elizabethtown College

Georgia State University, Atlanta

GuangXi International University, China

Heilongjiang University, China

Humanist Society of Greater Phoenix

Jewish Federation of Boston

Knox College

Laredo Community College, Laredo, Texas

Lebanon Valley College, Pennsylvania

Lynchburg College

Maricopa County Medical Center

Marietta College, Marietta, Ohio

McCallie School of Chattanooga

Mississippi State Legislative Committee

Nicolet College, Rhinelander, WI

The Oklahoma City Men’s Dinner Club

Pennsylvania State University, Dunmore PA

Philadelphia College of Textiles of Sciences, Philadelphia, PA

Phoenix Bureau of Jewish Education

Phoenix College

Rutgers University

Shandong University, China

Southern Connecticut State University

Southern Utah University

State University of New York at Cortland

Temple Beth Shalom, Las Vegas

Town Hall of Morris, NJ

University of Chicago

University of North Carolina, Charlotte

University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia

University of Portland

University of Southern Mississippi

University of Washington at Pullman

Wuhan University, China

WV West Virginia State College

Women’s Club of Wheeling, West Virginia Zhengzhou University, China


CBS News 1999

FOX News 1999

CBC Canada 1995

Nippon Japan 1995


The Dr. Oz Show

ABC 20/20 2017

“The Lead with Jake Tapper” CNN

The Ricki Lake Show 2013

NBC Disappeared

The Joy Behar Show, HLN 2010, 2011

“Dr. Phil Show” 2008, 2009, 2013

Nancy Grace CNN 2008, 2013, 2014

Bridges Television Network

VH1 News Special Hollywood Religion 2005

A Current Affair 2005

Fox News: “The O’Reilly Factor” 2005

Good Morning America 1993, 1997, 2005, 2008

Showtime: Penn & Teller 2004, 2005

“Smoking Gun,” Court TV, 2004

“Unscrewed,” Tech TV, 2004

Court TV Catherine Crier 2003, 2005

Court TV News 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005

ABC Nightline 1993, 1996, 1997

ABC Prime Time 1995

ABC Evening News 1993 , 1997

The Today Show 1993, 1995, 1997, 1998, 2003, 2006,


CBS 48 Hours 1989, 1992, 1993, 1999

Day and Date 1995

CBS News This Morning 1993

MTV News 1995

Oprah Winfrey 1989, 1994

Extra 1997, 1999

Fox Television 1993, 2003

E Entertainment Network THS Investigates

The Learning Channel

Fox News 2006, 2007, 2008

The Fox Files 1999

Hard Copy 1999

Personal Stories CNBC 1991

Jerry Springer 1993, 1994

Good Morning America 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2004, 2008

Dateline NBC 1997,2018

NBC Evening News 1993

CNN 1993, 1999, 2005

Court TV-Cochran & Company 1997

MSNBC News 1997, 2003

CBS Street Stories 1993

Day One 1993

Sally Jesse Raphael 1989, 1991

Inside Edition 1991, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2012,2018

Attitudes on Lifetime 1992

Geraldo Rivera 1988, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996,1997

MSNBC Special Report 2000 , 2008

MSNBC Scarborough Country 2005, 2006

MSNBC Catherine Crier 2006

Fox News, “Heartland ” with John Kasich

Geraldo At Large, Fox News 2007

CNN Anderson Cooper

Learning Channel “Heaven’s Gate”

“Deadly Devotion” Investigation Discovery 2014

“DeadlyCults” Codes and Conspiracies American Heroes Channel 2015

Geraldo CNBC 1996, 2000, 2001

American Journal

Phil Donahue 1989, 1992, 1993


lVP Telewizja Polska, Polish Television

“Sunday Night”, Australia Seven Network

CClV International Network, China

Phoenix Television, Hong Kong 2009, 2015

M 6, French National Television

PRO 7 Television, Germany

BBC Great Britain, 2004

BBC2 Great Britain, 2005

Daily Planet, The Discovery Channel, Canada

TV 2 National News of Denmark, 2001

CNN 1993, 1999, 2006

Nippon TV  Japan 1995

Canadian Broadcast Corp. 1993, 1995

Asahi TV Japan 1995

CNN Special Report 2000

BBC Panorama, 2005, 2007

CNN International News 2008


KOCO ABC News Oklahoma City

Fox News 5, Washington D.C.

KSHB-TV Kansas City, Misssouri

WTTJ Fox News Washington D.C.

Channel One, New York City

ABC affiliate Fargo

ABC affiliate Grand Forks

ABC affiliate Philadelphia

Comcast CNS Regional News

Fox “Good Day LA,” Los Angeles

KATU lV Portland, Oregon

KDFW Dallas

KFSN Fresno

KLAL Los Angeles

KNXV Phoenix

KOAT Albuquerque, NM

KOMO Seattle

KOOL Phoenix

KPHO Phoenix

KPNX Phoenix

WB 11 News, New York

WSAW News Wausau, Wisconsin

KSTP-TV Minneapolis

KTSP Phoenix

KTUV News, San Francisco

KVOA Tucson

KVTV Laredo


KYTV Springfield, MO

News 10 Sacramento, CA

PBS Phoenix

PBS Tucson

WCBS New York City

WNBC Detroit

WRTV 6 Indianapolis

WTRF Wheeling,WV

WSLS-lV Roanoke, VA

KCRG Cedar Rapids, Iowa

WBNS TV Columbus, Ohio


“Holy Smoke” a film directed by Jane Campion 1999, Miramax/Disney, technical consultant to actor Harvey Keitel


“Inside the Criminal Mind” episode 3 “Cult Leaders” Netflix 2018

“Truth and Lies: Jonestown Paradise Lost” ABC News 2018

“Inside the Manson Cult: The Lost Tapes” Fox 2018

ABC Documentary Special “Truth and Lies: The Family Manson” 2017

“Holy Hell” Directed by Will Allen 2016

Deprogrammed, a film by Mia Donovan, Eye Steel Film 2015

Witness to Waco, MSNBC Documentaries 2009

Polygamy: Religion or Mind Control?,MSNBC 2008

THS Investigates: Cults, Religion and Mind Control,2008

Mind Control, A&E Netowrk 2007

Heavens Gate: The Definitive Story Lincloln Square Productions, The Learning Channel 2007

Yogi Inc., John Philp 2007

Join Us, Interloper Films & Lustianby Ondi Timoner 2007

Transformation: The Life and Legacy of Werner Erhard, Symon Productions 2006

Crimes In The Name Of God, BNN/Court TV 1999

Waco: The Rules Of Engagement, 1997

Cults in America, NHK Japan 1995

In The Name Of God, Post Newsweek 1983



Town & Country Magazine

Vanity Fair Magazine

W Magazine

Knight Ridder Newspapers

Blender Music Magazine

FHM Magazine, US edition

Forbes Magazine

USA Today

Details Magazine

Time Magazine

Newsweek Magazine

Associated Press

Cosmopolitan Magazine

GQ Magazine

George Magazine

Glamour Magazine

The American Lawyer

The Gauntlet

The Star

Scripps Howard News Service

Soap Opera Digest

People Magazine

Pentecostal Evangel Magazine

Elle Magazine

Media General News Service

Self Magazine

Columbia News Service


China Today Magazine

Ta Kung Pao, Hong Kong

Wen Wei Po Daily News, Hong Kong

Jamaica Gleaner

Macleans Magazine, Canada

Woman’s Day Magazine, Australia

Daily Post North Wales, UK


China Dally News

Liberation, France

DS Magazine, France

Courrier International, France

HAARETZ Magazine, Israel

GQ Magazine, Germany

W Magazine

PRZEKROJ Weekly, Warsaw Poland

The London Times

FHM, Australia

FHM, Great Britain

Scotsman, Great Britain

The Observer, London

Globe and Mail

The Daily Telegraph, London

The Hamilton Spectator, Canada

DAVAR Israel

Globes, Israel

Processo Magazine, Mexico

Jewish Press International

The Guardian, London

Toronto Sun

Telegraf Weekly Belgrade, Yugoslavia

South China Morning Post, Hong Kong

Sunday Times, Johannesburg South Africa

Facts Magazine, Switzerland

Courier Mail, Australia


FHM Magazine, British edition

Hurontaria – Canadian Czech-out Monthly

Revu Magazine, the Netherlands

Bizarre Magazine, UK

Pravda, Russia

Bizarre Magazine, Great Britain

The Ottawa Citizen

Local Press

The New York Observer

The Appeal-Democrat, California

The Journal News, Westchester, New York

The Shawano Leader, Wisconsin

Cincinnati Enquirer

Louisville Courier-Journal

Cleveland Jewish News

San Antonio Express

The Journal News, Westchester, New York

Connecticut Post

Westchester Journal

Kansas City Star

Miami Herald

The San Francisco Examiner

The San Francisco Chronicle

Creative Loafing, Atlanta

Columbus Dispatch

Salt Lake City Tribune

The Palm Beach Post

The Star-Ledger, Jersey City

The New York Daily News

The Village Voice

Pioneer Press St. Paul, MN

The Las Vegas Sun

New York Magazine

The Pioneer Press, Aetna California

The Star Journal, Ventura, California

CityLink Magazine, Palm Beach

New York Times

New York Post

Newsday New York

Boston Globe

Washington Post

Eastside Weekly, Seattle

Chicago Tribune

LA Weekly

Houston Chronicle

Dallas Daily News

Seattle Times

Austin American Statesman

Milwaukee Sentinel

The Phoenix New Times

Scottsdale Progress

Anchorage Daily News

The Chattanooga Times

The State News, Lansing Michigan

Metroland Albany, New York

The Mesa Tribune

Texas Monthly

Seattle Post Intelligencer

Tempe Daily News

The Missoulian

The Arizona Republic

Phoenix Jewish News

Arizona Daily Sun

The Daily World, Aberdeen

Grand Forks Herald

Richmond Times Dispatch

Scottsdale Progress Tribune

The San Diego Union Tribune

Los Angeles Times

Washington Times

Fort Worth Star Telegram

Boston Herald

Waco Tribune-Herald

Boston Phoenix

Milwaukee Magazine

The Journal Times

Phoenix Gazette

Portland MA News

Ravilli Republic Montana

The Daily Pennsylvanian

Tampa Tribune

The Stranger Seattle

The Republican- PA

The Chicago Maroon

Echo Magazine, Phoenix


The Oregonian

Chicago Sun Times

Willamette Week Portland

Herald American Post

The Arizona Daily Star

Orlando Sentinel

Danbury News Times

Legal Times, Washington DC

New Jersey Law Journal

Portland Press Herald

Foster’s Sunday Citizen, NH

Worcester Telegram

Miami New Times

Houston Press

Los Angeles Independent

Cleveland Plain Dealer

Modesto Bee

South Florida Sun-Sentinel

Sarasota Herald-Tribune

San Francisco Weekly

Houston Press


CBC podcast series “Escaping NXIVM” 2018

Book of Man

Coconuts, Thailand 2018


Lions of Liberty podcast

LipTV “Media Mayhem”

Daily Beast

Slate Magazine

Time Magazine on line

Rediff on the Net

Hurontaria-Czech Canadian monthly

ABC News on line






Naomi Judd “Think Twice”, Sirius Satellite Radio

KURV McAllen, Texas

“Overnight America,” Jon Grayson

Montel Williams Air America

Rational Radio, Jack Jett Show

ABC National Radio, NY

Air America, “Majority Report”– The Janeane Garofolo Show

ABC Radio Satellite Sisters

Voice of America

ABC Mitch Albom Show

The Michael Reagan Show, Premiere Radio Network

American Freedom Network

CBS National Radio, N.Y.

KABC National Network, L.A.

National Public Radio

Pacifica National News

Sirius Satellite Radio

WMAL Washington D.C.

Rolanda Watts Show

Bill Press Show, Sirius Satellite Radio


702 Talk Radio, South Africa

570 News, CKGL Ontario, Canada

Radio 2UE Sydney, Australia

Spin Radio Dublin

Deutche Welle Gennany

CJOB Winnipeg Canada

NATC Network Sydney, Australia

BBC National Radio, Great Britain

Deutsche Welle, Gennany

CHQR Course Network, Canada

Radio Capital, Italy

National Radio RAI- Rome, Italy

Calgary, Canada QR77 WICK Network

567 Cape Town Talk, South Africa

CFRB Toronto

Australian Broadcast Corp.

CKO National Network Canada

CKW, Vancouver, Canada

Radio 650 NTR Saskatchewan, Canada

Radio Onda Caro-Spain

SAFM/National English Broadcaster, South Africa

BBC/Online, England

Toronto 640 News

CJAD Montreal

702 Talk Radio Johannesburg, South Africa


WUTQ-FM Utica, New York

WOOD Radio Grand Rapids, Michigan

Fox News Radio 600 KCOL, Colorado


WABC New Jersey

KTRH Houston

WCTC New Jersey

WTKF North Carolina

WJNC North Carolina

WPLY Philadelphia, PA

WXPR Rhinelander, WI

WERL Eagle River, WI

KTSA, San Antonio

WELJ FM, Mobile, Alabama

WMET Washington DC

WBZ Boston

WOWO AM Fort Wayne, Indiana

KCMO AM, Kansas City

WLNK Charlotte, North Carolina

CBS Radio, San Diego

WGHT, New Jersey

WMET, Washington, DC

KOGO, San Diego

710 Talk Radio, Kansas City

KRLA, Los Angeles

KXOY, Spokane

WFMP, Minneapolis

WTMJ, Milwaukee

KCNN, Grand Forks, North Dakota

WDAY, Fargo, North Dakota

KFI, Los Angeles

WOWO Fort Wayne, Indiana

WCCO, Minneapolis

KSFO San Francisco

KTRS St. Louis

KSTP Minneapolis

WFLA Tampa

Canadian News Talk, Saskatchewan

KHOW, Denver

CBS Radio, St. Louis

KHVH Honolulu, Hawaii

KFYI Phoenix

KHEP Phoenix

KLBJ Austin

KLIF Dallas

KNIX Los Angeles

KNST Tucson

KOA Denver

KOY Phoenix

KPRL San Luis Obispo County, CA

KPSN Phoenix


KTAR Phoenix

KTOK Grand Forks

KTOK Oklahoma City

KVEN Ventura

WAMJ South Bend

WCGL AM Jacksonville, Florida

WDWS Champaign

WFAD Middleburry

WHIO Dayton

WICC Bridgeport

WMC Memphis

WOAI San Antonio

WOND Radio Atlantic City

WSB Atlanta

WTKN Tampa

WUSA Dallas

WXYT Detroit

WFLA Orlando

WVRV St. Louis, Missouri

I have been qualified, accepted and testified in the following court cases:

Jennifer Campbell v. Phillip Campbell DR-2016-90016 ln the Circuit Court of Cullman County, Alabama

McCaffrey v. McCaffrey DR-2015-900434 ln the Circuit Court of Cullman County, Alabama

Grand Jury testimony in New York:

 I testified as an expert before an Oneida County Grand Jury as an expert witness in October 2015 regarding the criminal prosecution of leaders of the Word of Life Christian Church connected to the death of a teenage boy. The four defendants –         Tiffanie Irwin, her brother Joseph Irwin, Linda Morey and her son David Morey plead guilty without a trial subsequent to their indictments.

I was deposed as a proposed witness in the following lawsuit:

Scacetti v. Yehuda Berg, Kabbalah Centre Case No. BC 533 556 Superior Court State of California Los Angeles County September 2015

I was qualified and accepted, but did not testify in the following case due to a settlement:

Cowan v. Nu DRB 1602 — Washington D.C.

I have been qualified, accepted and testified subsequent to a Daubert bearing in the following US Federal Court case:

Noyes v. Kelly Services No. 2:02-cv-2685-GEB-CMK United States District Court, E.D. California.

Now check out Ross’ “Expert Witness Report” on good ol’ me …

Yeah, Folks, Really!  🙂

The Cult Education Institute

For the study of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements

1977 Olden Ave. Ext #272 Trenton, NJ 08618

Phone (609) 396-6684 Fax (609) 964-1842

Email Web Site URL

October 16, 2018,

Expert Witness Report

Re: Christopher Nemelka and the “Marvelous Work and Wonder”


I am the founder and Executive Director of the Cult Education Institute (CEI). CEI is a nonprofit tax-exempted educational 501 (c) (3) institution devoted to the study of controversial groups and movements, many considered destructive cults. CEI’s online library contains thousands of documents and hundreds of subsections about various groups and movements and is an institutional member of both the American and New Jersey library associations.

My work in the area of authoritarian groups, controversial groups and movements began in 1982. I am a widely known expert and my opinions are often cited in news reports, broadcasts and documentaries. I have also been invited to lecture at universities and colleges across the United States including Rutgers, Dickinson College, the University of Chicago, Carnegie Mellon University, Baylor University, and the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.

I have also presented papers at international conferences concerning authoritarian and destructive groups, some that have been called “cults” in both Thailand and China, which have been published in peer reviewed journals.

I am the author of the book Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out, which has been published in Chinese and Italian.

My professional work as a consultant has included helping hundreds of families, assisting mental health professionals, attorneys, clergy and law enforcement. Each year I typically respond to thousands of inquiries.

I have worked with law enforcement both on the local and federal level, such as the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF), the Justice Department and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

My Curriculum Vitae is attached.

Expert Witness

I have been qualified and accepted as an expert witness across the United States in court proceedings. This has included expert testimony at courts in Alabama, Arizona, California, Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, North Dakota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Washington D.C. I have testified in United States Federal Court after being qualified and accepted through a Daubert Hearing. I have also been deposed, and/or submitted testimony by affidavit as an expert within Arkansas, Connecticut, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas and Washington.

My court testimony has included divorce and child custody proceedings, criminal prosecution, expert testimony before a grand jury and personally injury claims. Typically my testimony is centered upon the behavior of authoritarian groups and/or leaders that gain undue influence over people through deception and the use of coercive persuasion techniques and then use that influence exploit and do damage to them. This undue influence can be seen when those affected act against their own best interest, but consistently in the best interest of the authoritarian leader and/or group.

Defining a Destructive Cult

A charismatic individual may attract what can be seen as “cult following.” That is, intensely devoted followers or fans that ardently embrace certain musicians, actors, artists. Certain products, companies and exercise or diet regimens might also have such a cult-like following. But when most people use the word “cult” they are referring to something less benign than enthusiastic listeners or consumers.

There is an entire chapter within my book Cults Inside Out discussing various historical definitions of what constitutes a destructive cult. Many of these definitions coalesce and/or intersect upon three basic criterion. These three primary characteristics are described in a paper written by psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton titled “Cult Formation.”i In my book I describe these three core criterion as the nucleus for a definition of a destructive cult.

Lifton’s three criteria are as follows:

  1. A charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
  2. A process [Lifton calls] coercive persuasion or thought reform;
  3. Economic, sexual and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Christopher Nemelka

I first became aware of the growing controversy surrounding Christopher Nemelka in 2007 when a news report was published about him in Salt Lake City.ii

In 2011 another report would detail the undue influence Nemelka exercised over Ida Smith, which caused concern amongst her family and friends.iii Nemelka garnered attention due to his singular claims of authority and supposed revelation. He was also repeatedly accused of using such claims to gain undue influence over people that became his followers.

Nemelka acknowledged in one news report that “Ida Smith turned over her estate to me.”iv

According to one of his followers Nemelka received “revelations” and “he’d persuaded her of his status as a prophet.” The woman felt that her efforts to help Nemelka through financial gifts and support was in response to “instructions from God.”v

Elderly Ida Smith at 79 was convinced that Nemelka was the reincarnation of her great-great grandfather, Hyrum Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon

These claims of special revelation and reincarnation place Christopher Nemelka well within the framework of Lifton’s criteria of a charismatic leader that becomes an object of worship. Because of his unique claims of authority Nemelka became the defining element and driving force of his band of followers. He once proposed that through him people had “the opportunity to know the truth.”vii .

Thought Reform

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton explains thought reform in his book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.viii Lifton states, “I wish to suggest a set of criteria against which any environment may be judged — a basis for answering the ever-recurring question: ‘Isn’t this just like ‘brainwashing?'”ix

Lifton’s criteria to define thought reform consist of eight psychological themes which are predominant within the social field of the thought reform milieu. These characteristics described by Robert Jay Lifton are in Chapter 22 of his book.x

Here are four brief examples from the eight criteria proposed by Lifton for the purpose of this preliminary report, which illustrate how Christopher Nemelka used thought reform techniques to gain undue influence over his followers.

  • Milieu Control

 Lifton says, “The most basic feature of the thought reform environment, the psychological current upon which all else depends, is the control of human communication. Through this milieu control the totalist environment seeks to establish domain over not only the individual’s communication with the outside (all that he sees and hears, reads or writes, experiences, and expresses), but also – in its penetration of his inner life – over what we may speak of as his communication with himself.”xi

Nemelka did this by largely dominating their lives by monopolizing their time. Subordinating their needs to Nemelka vision became their primary purpose.

  • Mystical Manipulation

Lifton says that mystical manipulation is “the inevitable next step after milieu control.” Lifton states that this constitutes “extensive personal manipulation.” And that ”this manipulation assumes a no-holds-barred character, and uses every possible device at the milieu’s command, no matter how bizarre or painful. Initiated from above, it seeks to provoke specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that these will appear to have arisen spontaneously, directed as it is by an ostensibly omniscient group, must assume, for the manipulated, a near-mystical quality.”xii

Lifton further explains, “This is a systematic process through which the leadership can create in cult members what I call the psychology of the pawn. The process is managed so that it appears to arise spontaneously; to its objects it rarely feels like manipulation. Religious techniques such as fasting, chanting and limited sleep are used. Manipulation may take on a special intense quality in a cult for which a particular chosen’ human being is the only source of salvation.”xiii

Nemelka mystically manipulated his followers through his spiritual and prophetic claims of authority. They felt as if his words were equal to ” instructions from God.”

  • Sacred Science

Another feature of thought reform as described by Lifton is what he calls the “Sacred Science” of the group. There is no room for doubt or meaningful questioning. Lifton explains, “The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic dogma, holding it out as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. This sacredness is evident in the prohibition (whether or not explicit) against the questioning of basic assumptions, and in the reverence which is demanded for the originators of the Word, the present bearers of the Word, and the Word itself.”xiv

Nemelka proposed that his ability as a translator and interpreter of ”truth” absolute and beyond question. No one that followed Nemelka was able to stay within the group under his leadership if they challenged these basic assumptions, which formed the foundation of his work and the ordering of human existence.

  • Dispensing of Existence

Lifton explains, “The totalist environment draws a sharp line between those whose right to existence can be recognized, and those who possess no such right.”xv

Anyone that doggedly criticized Nemelka and persisted despite his objections was subject to not being recognized as relevant within his world and therefore essentially they ceased to exist within that context. Those who walked away from Nemelka as dissenters thus became non­ existent to those that remained loyal to Nemelka. The only way to return to existence within Nemelka’s world is to agree with him and renounce past criticism, admitting that you were wrong..

Coercive Persuasion

MIT professor Edgar Schein first summarized the three basic stages of coercive persuasion as “unfreezing,” “changing” and “refreezing.”xvi

Unfreezing is the process of breaking a person down and creating a sense of powerlessness, covert fear and dependence. In this phase of the coercive persuasion process much of the person’s old behavior and attitudes are suppressed. The following changing phase of coercive persuasion is devoted to instilling new behavior and attitudes. Refreezing is the final phase, which effectively locks in a closed system of logic that is resistant to any meaningful input or criticism.

These descriptions of Schein’s stages of coercive persuasion and how each stage can be correlated to the eight criteria cited by psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton to identify a thought reform program is charted by psychologist Margaret Singer in her book Cults in Our Midst.xvii

For example unfreezing utilizes the thought reform characteristic of milieu control, to break down or unfreeze the individual. The changing phase is then accomplished in part through mystical manipulation and refreezing, the final phase, is then completed through acceptance of the sacred science and further reinforced by fear concerning the dispensing of existence.

Each disciple was dissembled or unfrozen by Nemelka, changed through his manipulation and then refrozen into the role of his submissive servant.

This can readily be seen by the actions of Nemelka devotees, which frequently was against their own best interests, but consistently in the best interest of Christopher Nemelka.


Nemelka used his undue influence to exploit his followers. This can be seen by his financial exploitation of lda Smith in which he essentially emptied her estate including a gravesite, a house and other assets all used for his benefit and aggrandizement.xviii Despite the concerns and wishes of her family and old friends Ida Smith used her personal burial plot and its location near the grave of Hyrum Smith to erect a plinth proclaiming Nemelka “as the reincarnation of Hyrum Smith, along with boasting two trademarked Websites inscribed in bright blue at the base of the plinth, which promotes his work.””xix Under the undue influence of Nemelka Ida Smith also signed over all her assets to the “Marvelous Work and Wonder Trust” run by Nemelka.

Another former follower Marie says she gave Nemelka $5,000.00.xx

Christopher Nemelka tacitly admitted to one reporter in an interview concerning one of his victims, “What I did do was I deceived her religiously. I played with her religious beliefs and mind, which I do not think a person should do.”xxi

Nemelka stated, “When I deal with people, I am amazed at the ignorance and stupidity of most. People are so easily manipulated and deceived. Knowing this has made me a near master of manipulation. I try only to use this art, to however, to help people [sic], Sometimes I do seem terrible at the time, but usually the manipulation works to accomplish that which I intended.”xxii

Christopher Nemelka has virtually rationalized almost anything seemingly with the deeply flawed philosophy that “the end justifies the means” though he freely admits, “All the revelations are bullshit, of course, I made em up.”xxiii


Christopher Nemelka has a long history of harassing his perceived enemies with lawsuits. After his divorce Nemelka was charged with kidnapping his son. He responded by threatening a multi­ million dollar lawsuit against the state of Montana for taking his children. The charges against him were dropped.xxiv

Historically so-called “cult leaders” have often used litigation to harass their critics. I have been sued five times by various groups called “cults.” All of those lawsuits were dismissed through motions for summary judgement. One of those litigants was Keith Raniere the leader of NXIVM who sued both his critics and former members. Raniere is now criminally charged with sex- trafficking and being held pending trial and has repeatedly been denied bail.xxv Ironically, one of Nemelka’s victims Marie was also apparently a follower of Raniere who commented that “he never met or dealt with Nemelka firsthand. But he can vouch for the fact that the man had a deep grip on Marie. Her conversations about Nemelka consistently revolved around his demands on her, Raniere said. ‘It was like peeling back the layers of an onion in order to get to the core of rationality . There was no rationality to be had,’ Raniere said.”xxvi

One purported “cult” leader in Australia Serge Benhayon, the founder of Universal Medicine, who claimed to be the reincarnation of Leonardo da Vinci, sued a critic over blog posts and tweets. But Benhayon lost his lawsuit this month when the jury found that he leads socially harmful cult.xxvii

The purpose of such lawsuits filed by authoritarian leaders of purported cults is to silence criticism and harass their perceived enemies.


It is my opinion that Christopher Nemelka fits well within the framework of a destructive cult leader, who has manipulated and exploited people through undue influence. Nemelka no doubt feels that whatever end he desires and has predetermined somehow justifies the damage he does through his manipulation. This type of rationalization is a historical hallmark of destructive cult leaders from Charles Manson to Jim Jones and Keith Raniere.


i Robert Jay Lifton, “Cult Formation,” Harvard Mental Health Letter, February 1981.

ii Ben Fulton, “True Believer: A fabled portion of the Book of Mormon made a one-time believer out of Christine Marie. The author says he only gave her what she was looking for,” Salt Lake Weekly, June 11, 2011.

iii Matthew Kalman,” A Burning in Ida Smith’s bosom leads her to Christopher Nemelka’s new spiritual order,” Salt Lake City News, January 26, 2011.

iv Stephen Dark “Christopher Nemelka to confront his critics,” Solt Lake City News, March 16, 2011.

v Ben Fulton, “True Believer: A fabled portion of the Book of Mormon made a one-time believer out of Christine Marie. The author says he only gave her what she was looking for,” Solt Lake Weekly, June 11, 2011.

vi Matthew Kalman,” A Burning in Ida Smith’s bosom leads her to Christopher Nemelka’s new spiritual order,” Salt Lake City News, January 26, 2011.

vii Stephen Dark “Christopher Nemelka to confront his critics,” Salt Lake City News, March 16, 2011.

viii Robert Jay Lifton, Thought Reform and Psychology of Totalism (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2012).

ix Ibid. p. 420.

x Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, 419-437.

xi Ibid. p. 420.

xii Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, p. 422.

xiii Robert Jay Lifton, “Cult Formation,” Harvard Mental Health Letter, February 1981.

xiv Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, p. 427.

xv Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, p. 433.

xvi Edgar H. Schein, Coercive Persuasion: A Socio-psychological Analysis of the Brainwashing of American Civilian Prisoners by the Chinese Communists (New York: W.W. Norton, 1971).

xvii Margaret Singer, Cults in Our Midst, (San Francisco: Jossey Bass, 1996), p. 58-59.

xviii Matthew Kalman, “A Burning in Ida Smith’s bosom leads her to Christopher Nemelka’s new spiritual order,” Salt Lake City News, January 26, 2011.

xix Ibid.

xx Ben Fulton, “True Believer: A fabled portion of the Book of Mormon made a one-time believer out of Christine Marie. The author says he only gave her what she was looking for,” Salt Lake Weekly,June 11, 2011.

xxi   Ibid.

xxii Ibid.

xxiii. Ibid.

xxiv Ibid.

xxv Andrew Keshner, “Judge denies NXIVM sex cult founder’s $10 million bail bid in sex trafficking case,” New York Daily News, June 12, 2018.

xxvi Ben Fulton, “True Believer: A fabled portion of the Book of Mormon made a one-time believer out of Christine Marie. The author says he only gave her what she was looking for,” Salt Lake Weekly, June 11, 2011.

xxvii Margaret Scheikowski, “Defamation loss for NSW spiritual healer,” Australian Associated Press, October 15, 2018.

Well, Folks, when I’m done with Echthros, I will be filing a defamation lawsuit against Rick Ross in Federal Court, allowing me to take on someone who purports to be an expert.  Check out his own website listing me as a dangerous cult leader:

I wrote the following to Mr. Ross:


Fwd: Defendant’s Witness Disclosure

Christopher Nemelka

Attachments2:11 AM (3 hours ago)

to rickrossnormreecelawJosephMonicaPatRon

Mr. Ross,

I am proceeding pro se in a lawsuit of which you have been named a witness.  Representing myself, I have a right to contact you and ask you questions.  Of course, you have the right to remain silent … * 🙂

Attached is a Defendant’s trial Witness List on which you are listed.  Of concern is Exhibit A, which appears to be a copy of an “Expert Witness Report” that you wrote on October 16, 2018, … yesterday.  It is not signed, it is not verified.
If you are going to be a witness at the upcoming trial in this case, I intend on deposing you.  If you actually publish or have published the things that you have said in your report, if you claim this report is an official report from you as an “Expert,” I intend on traveling to New Jersey to depose you, and I will be considering a lawsuit against you.  I would strongly advise you from making and/or publishing any more defamatory statements about me until after this trial has concluded wherein the evidence that I am FAR from a cult leader will be given.
*And remember, Sir, … anything you say … anything that you publish about me on your website … can and will be used against you in a court of law … always wanted to say that.  🙂
At this juncture, I DEMAND that you remove my name, my image, and any reference to me being a Cult Leader from your website.  If you do not, I will be forced to sue you also for defamation, and will do so after this trial is over.
If Exhibit A is going to be part of your testimony, please inform me of some available dates in November when I can travel to New Jersey to depose you, which I intend to do if you are actually one of the Defendant’s “Expert Witnesses,” more so if you have published the things written as Exhibit A on any public website, for any other reason outside of this lawsuit, and also to support my own potential lawsuit against you.
Sir, you might want to consider the attached Affidavits I have filed in this case to support a decision of Summary Judgment in my favor.  You might want to contact these “cult members” of mine and speak with them directly before making such outrageous allegations as your supposed “Expert Witness Report” maligns against me.  Along with a plethora of others, Ron and Pat Ferguson will personally be appearing at trial to testify.  The Ferguson are typical examples of the witnesses that are part of what you call a “cult.”  Here is their actual contact information.  I am certain that they look forward to your call:
Ron and Pat Ferguson
1980 W. 470 North
St. George, UT  84770
Ron (801) 928-4089
Pat  (801) 928-4091
(emails are listed in the cc section of this email)
It would behoove you, Sir, if you value your “Expert” status as an Expert on cult behavior to actually investigate your allegations … if they are your allegations.
Act accordingly,
Christopher Nemelka

As the good ‘ol saying goes:  “You can buy anything in this world for money.”  … Especially expert witness testimony.

Besides Echthros, Ross will not be able to find one person on this Earth who can competently and substantially testify that I am anything like what he has written in his “Expert Witness Report.”

Nothing would please me more than to cross-examine Ross at trial, which I hope to get the opportunity to IF he actually attends the trial.  Before the trial, I intend on deposing him and video recording it for all to see.  Wouldn’t it be cool for the world to see an actual True Messenger take on an Expert, trained for the ministry?

Well, Mr. Ross, it will be you and me, Dude!  Expert and the guy who is going to make you look like an opportunistic fool who would do anything for money.

But anyways …

I’ll keep you up-to-date on the trial.  It’s going to be so cool!

I don’t think I’ve done anything for the MWAW and the Bros that has excited and motivated me more.